FB: Here we are in the old Sherry Biltmore Hotel, now a Berklee College lounge connected with the Performance Center. Talking to Ray Santisi who's been a member of the Berklee faculty for -- two weeks was it? And 50 years. This is an ongoing series and your colleagues and friends have preceded you and will follow you. Next week is Dick Johnson who you're going with in a week hence. Ray, welcome to the Berklee College library Oral History Project.

RS: Thank you Fred, it's a pleasure to be here indeed and hopefully we can shed some light on the origins and the forward motion that the college has in mind for its rather large enrollment. Big success story.

FB: It is.

RS: Really, when you consider the genesis of it all.

FB: A modest brick residence on Newbury Street, Larry Berk, Schillinger House, 1945, ‘46...

RS: Yes, in that period that's right, yes. And undertaken by pretty much a family project, you know. And considering the pitfalls that may have arisen from a project that, of that magnitude you know, made it succeed. And through, I think, personal money and so forth -- and perseverance.

FB: Well, Larry Berk was a unique personality.

RS: Oh, absolutely.

FB: And he had the mathematical genius.

RS: Oh -- MIT grad, engineer, great piano player, for which he was never really looked at, you know. But I heard him play and he could play well. And he was a great arranger for NBC in New York and he was just an all around brilliant individual you know.

FB: Personable?

RS: Yes, generous.

FB: Well meaning? Great affection for musicians of caliber?

RS: Absolutely. And his generosity was, you know, he just, being with him for a moment you could realize it. He understood musicians and their role as professionals you know. There might be a little truth in the fact that you know he'd say, in the beginning you know, things were tight and we were teaching many, many hours you know on a bracket system payment. We had to watch the purse-strings you know. And Larry, gee, I'd like a raise. Well, I don't know about that right now. Okay, next day, Larry, personally could I borrow? Oh yeah, here, as much as you want. He was that kind of a guy, very generous person and treated all the people teaching there at the time that way. They didn't fire people, it was to their advantage, to his advantage and the school's advantage to have people go out on the road if necessary, take some time you know... He had a great vision for that. It would enhance the profile of the school if people did that. Unless it was taken advantage of when people would go out for weeks and weeks at a time and never come back to teach, you know. But usually you could say, I need a little time to go out and play. Some of the people went out on the road with Lionel Hampton and so forth. And he would condone that as a plus. So all in all, Larry Berk was the founder and the man that had great vision. Even at that time, I had some communications in my file that I ended up with, showing all of the veterans files and so forth. And there are also some communications there, Larry was doing communications with other schools in Europe. Now look, I have a school, you have a school, is there any way we can kind of put something together you know. Even at that point.

FB: This is way before the BIN projects.

RS: Oh yes, way before that. He had the vision to realize that he would set up a line of communication with these other places all over the world.

FB: With classical conservatories?

RS: Some of them, I think. I would have to look at those, those communications to see if they were, pretty much. So -- tremendous vision, you know, even at that time. And it's manifested itself into what you had just mentioned as being Berklee International Networks and Berklee on the road. I did that for many years, from Canary Islands to South America, Japan, we were there and we would give scholarships. Many of the people here now are the result of scholarships given from the BINs and so forth.

FB: Pursuing Larry's application of mathematical principals to music and then finding the shoe-horn into the popular music of the period, he was able to adapt these into what he called nightclub harmonies? Or harmonizations?

RS: Nightclub harmonization. I guess which consisted of the rudiments. The student would come and learn Number One, the form, all of the major scales with the formula, he was very mathematical, 2 2 1 2 2 2 1 which represented half and whole steps and using that a student knowing nothing would be able to form a major scale and then the signatures. And then derive the chords from extracting, by extracting each, every other note from those scales. And it consisted of, you know, those chords consisted of the harmonies that you hear in dance band arranging and lead sheets today with standard tunes. So with that amount of knowledge, even at that point, a melody was given and a student could harmonize it using those chords. And then take it a step further and then assign it to instrumentation. And, four saxophones, four trumpets, or three trombone. And then be able to put that together and create an arrangement just based on that rudimentary information. And they did, so each student was, it was necessary to write an arrangement and have it played and recorded. I think I have my original recording on wax, "Darn That Dream."

FB: Wow.

RS: It was terrible. However, you know, quite an achievement for incoming people that, with not much background. So in the night clubs, and in the dance bands, that was a kind of harmony that was used, you know, based on that, those basic principals.

FB: And there was no wide gap between jazz and the popular music of the day because they were practically one and the same.

RS: Sure.

FB: To start in a diverge with a little bit of R&B and Motown -- no, it was before Motown.

RS: Well, yeah the... up till the late 30's and early 40's, I guess, the bebop came in, kind of blitzed all the dance band people. You know, because there were just so much more going on, so much futuristic, so many more futuristic techniques were being used, you know. Harmonically, and so forth.

FB: But that quickly worked its way into the curriculum as well?

RS: Well, you know, it's a little muddled because a lot of the arrangers were using things like that in their writing, you know. But the writing arrangements were so much more formalized you know and the bebop stuff was pretty free, out there, free, you know and so forth. But the arrangers really formalized the stuff and I'm sure they incorporated some of the phrases that were heard, but were able to harmonize them and write them out for sections and a whole dance band, you know. Call it a dance band. But, so there was kind of a overlapping of the dance band concept. So it was called nightclub harmonization because that's, those are the techniques that were used to write for those bands.

FB: And your fellow faculty members were also the guys that you gigged with in many cases?

RS: Oh sure, sure. Well, let me think, who was there? Quincy Jones was there, I don't think we did any gigs together, but I sort of remember that he was playing in some of the ensembles and arranging for a lot of the performances that took place. Herb Pomeroy of course, we would play a lot together.

FB: I remember seeing you at the Stables when I was a freshman at BC in 1960.

RS: That's right, that is a long history, that's a long history as to what transpired in that period. Actually Charlie Mariano, Pomeroy, Herb Pomeroy, myself, were playing with a dance band. A man named Jessie Smith at the King Phillip Ballroom out in Wrentham, Massachussetts, they would have, beautiful place, a little lake, Lake Pearl, and they would, they would bring a band on and all these people would do actually ballroom dancing, all kinds of things. We had a string section, couple of vocalists, and Jessie Smith was quite a good commercial writer. And he had a dance book. But prior to one of the gigs, we were waiting outside in a drugstore ordering some shakes, milkshakes, and Charlie Mariano said, you know, “I've got an idea for a jazz workshop. Okay,” he said, “can we find a place and just have people come and we could play and we could teach?” and so forth. Wow, pretty good idea. It turned out that there was a building on Stuart Street right here in downtown, near Copley Square, old office building. And some how the wheels got turning and we leased the place downstairs. We had nothing, no pianos, nothing, and a man named Peter Morris who was going to Harvard at the time and he was an aspiring saxophonist. And he says well, we'll got some pianos, and he put up some money and we rented some upright pianos, got them moved in there and started playing. And the local musicians would come in and... Jake Hanna, Charlie and so forth, where we’d all start to play and hold little classes and private lessons and... for two dollars or whatever it was.
And Storyville was an operation where people would just come in. Jo Jones, I think Charlie Parker showed up. You know, hey, what's going on here? you know, what kind of a thing is this? And then we had big band and the thing began to take off. I was there one day with a man named Varty Haroutunian and Peter Littman, a drummer. And a man came in the door and he saw the actitivity, he said, “my name is Dick O'Donnell.” He said, you know, “I'm leasing a place around the corner called the Stables. It's just a little bar and he said, not making any money, maybe we need some music. You guys want to come down and play?” And I said, “Oh, I don't know, speak to this other fellow.” So he spoke to this fellow named Varty Haroutunian and he said, “Do you want to do it?” I said, “I don't know,” so he said okay. We went down, there was an old upright piano, a jukebox and you went down a ramp, there's a bar upstairs, you went down the ramp and you played. There's nothing going on. But as bonding would have it -- which is a big element in the school today, you know young people bonding -- word got around, here's this place down there, can we go down and you know it's a bar and so, there's some music. John Neves came out of the service, Korean War, brought his white bass down and he started to sit in with us. And it began to take off a little bit. So there we were, and business wasn't that great, but the owner, the man that we leased it from, said, “Do you guys want to take this over, you know, pay me so much a month and buy the liquor and take care of it?” Okay, so we did that. We would haul up cases of beer from the basement and pay the waitresses and the whole thing. But we had our own place.

FB: So, the regular bar was upstairs and you guys, this was like an annex?

RS: Yeah, well there was a ramp that went down to the restrooms and there was a swinging door that led into this little bar, you know, the Stables...

FB: So you leased it from O'Connell?

RS: No, he was leasing it from a man named Harold Buchhalter.

FB: Okay.

RS: And nothing was going on, you know. So, we, they moved him out okay, turned it over to us. And of course as business got better, they took it back. And it would go back and forth like that, you know. So, but we still had our own place and it was great because Storyville was across the street and people would come in from next door and sit in with us. Donald Byrd came in, said, “I want this rhythm section for my first album.”

FB: Transition.

RS: Exactly, Transition. Benny Golson would come in, Horace Silver. You could look out in the audience and George Shearing would be sitting there because we had a big band playing a few nights a week. And Benny Golson did come in one night and there were three of us at the helm, paying the rent, and playing the music and so forth. Herb said, “Benny, can you write us some tunes?” We had a three horn group. So he wrote some things, “Park Avenue Petite”, “Hassan's Dream”, “City Lights”, and he thought it would be apropos for him to write something called “Stablemates” -- that was us.

FB: All-time classic.

RS: “Stablemates”, right. So it was a very wonderful, adventurous period.

FB: “Along Came Betty” came later?

RS: Yes, and I'm not sure of that, what that story's all about. But certainly, it developed from that point on and then I was in Stockholm with Buddy DeFranco and I got the word that there were going to be tearing that block down to make room for the Prudential Center. And the man that we were leasing from said look, I've got a place across the street. When that's finished, and you can look at the plans, if you want to have it in the round, we'll do that. If you want it square, have more seating, we'll do it that way. So that was, we brought the name Jazz Workshop over to that new building. And right adjacent to it was a place called Paul's Mall.

FB: Tony [Marielli] and Fred [Taylor]?

RS: Then they, well, we ran it for a long time as the Jazz Workshop.

FB: Okay.

RS: Then a man named Paul Valen came in and the owner got involved with him and said, “Oh, I'll make you a place next door called Paul's Mall.” And they brought in name people there as well. And then we were going that for a long time and then Herb and myself from the other person -- leaser, leasor, lessee, I guess?

FB: Lessee, yeah.

RS: So, yeah Fred Taylor, Tony Marielli, Peter Lane came in on it and they were able to come up with a pretty good offer. So they took the whole thing over. But prior to that we were, we were hiring Coltrane, [Oscar] Peterson, putting it, they were right on the schedule.

FB: This is in the late 50's?

RS: It was after that.

FB: 60's?

RS: Early, middle, somewhere in there, yep.

FB: And you were glad to be shut of it, or did they kind of elbow you out?

RS: Oh yeah, we just wanted to play the music.

FB: Okay.

RS: Didn't want to be involved in the business part of it so. Because that does require a lot of, I mean Fred Taylor was, had his Rolodex together, he knew just how to book, and still does.

FB: Still does.

RS: I mean he just had a good knack for catching people on the rebound, booking it the right way, the right time, right price.

FB: He made a lot of friends when they were cheap acts.

RS: Exactly.

FB: He hired George Benson's Quartet for $1,000 a night.

RS: Oh yeah. And I worked there you know, even though we went out there, I worked there at the mall, Paul's Mall, with Tammy Grimes, Mel Torme, he still used the rhythm section you know. And you know, they succeeded with that policy for a long time.

FB: The rhythm section was you and John Neves and Jimmy Zitano?

RS: There were a lot of people in and out. In the Jazz Workshop, we had all kinds of people. We had Steve Swallow, we had Gary Peacock, we had Joe Chambers playing drums. We had Joe Hunt, we had, you know, different people playing. But essentially in the beginning, it was John Neves and Pete LaRocca came in, played drums with us. So it was kind of, lot of turnover with the rhythm section. But when I got over to Paul's Mall and we, Richard Reid I think played bass with us. Even George Mraz I think came in and played later. But it was quite an activity going on you know at the time musically. There was a lot happening then.

FB: While you're, are you teaching at Berklee now or were you, did you take a time off from it?

RS: No, I was still there, I was teaching and playing.

FB: So teach all day, play all night.

RS: Yeah, exactly.

FB: How does one feed the other or get in the way of the other?

RS: Well, as previously mentioned, you know, Larry Berk really condoned people having exposure because it was good for the school you know if you're out playing professionally and you're also teaching. You're kind of honing your teaching craft as you're out there playing because you are able to, you know, pass that actual experience onto students as well as the theoretical, technical things you know. You can also bring in the tools necessary for playing different kinds of gigs with different people, the repertoire you know, the style.

FB: And they can see you in action, putting into practice what you're teaching them in the classroom. So you've got a built in audience.

RS: There you go, big advertising for that. And I think it still holds true, I mean people want to say okay, where can we see you? Where can we hear what you're doing? And are you using the same things you're telling me to do you know? In a class? Same techniques? So...

FB: But you weren't limited to the workshop, you were first call pianist with all the singles who came through town for a long time. I mean Lenny's on the Turnpike, Sandy's Jazz Revival...

RS: Those are the three main places, that's right Fred. Those are the three main places that kept a rhythm section intact locally. And when they brought people in, it was to their benefit, the owner's that is, to come in and not have to pay for a whole travelling group and accommodations. And it was a good rhythm section so people, we really enjoyed playing with all these people.

FB: Would you just briefly recount some of the more salient names of people that came to Boston and would point to you or would have you as their team in place ready to go with them?

RS: Well when we opened, when we took over the Jazz Workshop, going back a little bit, we opened with Stan Getz. And I forget what we paid him for the whole week, but he worked with us. And what would often happen would be these people at a future time, would call you to go out on the road with them for you know, a short period of time. And that was one, Stan Getz, Howard McGhee, Johnny Hartman and Carol Sloane, right down the list. I mean any of these people that came in would work with us, you know at the workshop or at... Joe Williams, you could go right down the line. And there was a lot of consistent booking going on then, you know, Fred Taylor and those people were bringing in people all the time. Weekly as a matter of fact. Dexter Gordon...

FB: Sonny Stitt.

RS: Sonny Stitt, Mel Torme, Buddy DeFranco, then he called me to go out on the road and record and so forth, which we did. So it was very, very pivotal for me because you had a chance to play locally with these people and then also, you know, if they liked it, they would give you a call and you'd move with them a little later on, you know.

FB: Did you have several extended leaves of absence with people like DeFranco who would call you to take off for Europe or other places?

RS: No, these were short periods and as I said, you were able to manipulate your schedule so that you could, you could do it. It's actually happening now at the school. There are people that still maintain their professional career but in and out you know. For short periods of time, it can't be you know, a whole semester unless you take a sabbatical.

FB: How has your teaching career evolved over the years? I mean, you know, correlating the practical with the theoretical or you know, artistry versus pedagogy, you know, how does it all?

RS: Very good question, I wish you hadn't asked it. No, excellent. I think it's always been an emphasis you know, in teaching, you know in a creative field. You know, if it's cut dried, astrophysics, get the numbers right or not. But this, you're right, you're coupling individual talent with, and how do you measure the need for a certain amount of technical material with, as opposed to drawing out the basic skill, the basic talent of a person. And doing things more by demonstration you know, and so forth. And by ear. It's very hard to define the amount of technology as opposed to just total immersion you know. So, but you're still, you're in the ball park. In my case, just listening to new things that are happening, the transitions between styles. It's no longer that dance band stuff which is, as far as I'm concerned, still is the cornerstone of theoretical material. Learning all those things and that's what I'm hoping to bring out in a book that I'm trying to finish. It deals with those techniques specifically. But then again you had so many transitions and crossovers when you heard Chick Corea and you heard any of the people like McCoy Tyner using more advanced techniques, I guess they're advanced. Pentatonic scales, fourth voicings, and a much freer approach to standard tunes. You got to keep up with it, so I listen to that. And then as you listen, you try to formalize it with pedagogy and outline it as a course. And so you have to stay up with it and hear what young people are doing. And especially now with the crossover with funk and all the other styles that are in place. Salsa, montuna, which is not completely new harmonically, but still all of these are now beginning to overlap and you have to stay with it, and hear what's going on and try to find a way to, to present it in a formal, organized way.

FB: Sometimes you have the advantage of hindsight or the long view in being able to determine that, you know, well what these Afro-Cuban guys are doing was done by Jelly Roll Morton back in the teens and twenties and Dr., Professor Longhair. You trace those roots all the way through for them, giving them a longer vision then they might have been able to come up with on their own.

RS: Yeah, I mean Quincy Jones put it right when he was here recently you know, giving a talk at Berklee. Of course he's immersed in ‘now music’ with young people and so forth. And it has to do with, you know, Michael Jackson, funk and all the other styles, excellent. But he still brought it back and said, you know, making an announcement to the younger people there, the roots have to be there. And that's roots meaning where did it all start and how did it evolve into what it is now. And so a lot of the good stuff that you're going to hear, you hear the roots, they'll still be there. Time feel, harmonic development, all those things.

FB: What about some of the, your successes in and out of the classroom over the years? What are some of your you know, career highlights would you say?

RS: Teaching or playing? Or both?

FB: Either or both, yeah.

RS: Oh, well as far as the teaching is concerned, having had the privilege to teach all over the country with the Stan Kenton clinics for many years and boy! that was great, great connector because we would start in Bloomington, Indiana and meet people in the field like Russ Garcia, Don Jacobi, all these great people that you may not otherwise have met. And would teach a week in each, each city on campus with Stan Kenton's band, he would be there. There was a man named Ken Morris from out of Indiana and he put this whole thing together and called it the, what did he call it? The Stan Kenton Jazz Clinics. And that was a great opportunity to meet people and... There, again, extend the word, the ‘Berklee’ word because I would represent the school to some, in some capacity. There was the jazz the clinics however, when I got down in some of the Southern states, the word ‘jazz’ didn't go over that well, so they changed it to the National Stage Band Camps, okay. Just to keep the propriety in place.

FB: Yeah that camp kind of conjures up Robert E. Lee and the troops...

RS: Right. So that was a great opportunity for me to do that for 12 years. And then of course, being able to travel with the school for many years. As I said, all over the world, Finland...

FB: Berklee abroad, everywhere.

RS: Oh, boy. So we, it was great for me to be able to reach students and administrators from different quarters, you know.

FB: How big was recruitment in that, that impetus? Were you actually, you know, identifying potential scholarship recipients and bringing a few kids back?

RS: Oh, yeah.

RS: Oh sure, a lot of that. And many of them have gone on to do very well. I think, going back to the national stage band and just Stan Kenton clinics, that's where I met Gary Burton, Keith Jarrett. They were attending and of course they got scholarships right away, and the rest is history.

FB: Well, Gary had a brilliant career here. Keith didn't stay long, right? Just a couple of semesters?

RS: I don't think so. We were together for at least a year, couple semesters, I think. And I don't know what happened after that, but I remember we were running the Jazz Workshop at the time, the three of us and there was a restaurant upstairs, we got him a job playing the piano upstairs in the restaurant. Charles Lloyd came around, heard him, picked him up, and that was it.

FB: That was it.

RS: He said, “Go to New York!” and he did. That's, the rest of that is history as well. But as a result of those clinics and Berklee on the road, you know, we did get to meet these people at a very young age. They being at a very young age.

FB: Who were some of the other students that you recall fondly or famously?

RS: Well, you know I, many of these people came in playing so well when they got there, you know. I just, you know, have a little bit of a rub with the peripheral sense that I might have been instrumental in their success. It's not that way.

FB: It's the little nudge in the right direction, a little fine tuning.

RS: If they would be able to pick up a sentence or a lick or something, wonderful, then we'll take credit for that. But by all means, they were playing so well when they came here which is the case with many people. And their motivation for attending, we would have to speak with them to find out what motivated them to want to do that. Change of venue or change of something. But Diana Krall, Gary Burton, Sadao Watanabe, many, many people. Who's coming into town? Masahiko Sato. Pianist with Gary Burton? Makoto Ozone, he's coming in, he's coming in. All these people were playing well when they came here. As I say, I, if there was any, if there was a three-word, four-word sentence that might have influenced their playing, all well and good. But they all went on to do very well on their own you know. Of course Berklee, I mean, I shouldn't minimize all of the other material that they accumulated from the school. So maybe I should you know, qualify that in saying that was my experience. But I'm sure that, you know, all of the other classes that were there certainly helped them tremendously. Yes, I shouldn't let that go by the board. And so as far as you know, Berklee was highly instrumental in helping these people academically and musically. I kind of isolated myself with that, but it's not true. You know they, I'm sure they found, found out many things they didn't know about music just by attending all the other classes that they had.

FB: Yeah certainly arranging, the general, the general humanities courses, things like that. A little more exposure, broad based to Western civilization.

RS: I shouldn't have left that out, but that's true, they did so well with... Berklee was, was really a tremendous asset to their career, I'm sure.

FB: You might call attention to the, let's say the evolution of the student body over the years here as the school has become more international and has drawn an increasing percentage of students from Asia and Europe, South America. How they come, you know, better prepared in certain areas than they used to be as piano students.

RS: Sure they... You now, Europeans, Russians, have always been noted as having a tremendously stringent classical style of teaching. So many of the students that come from Asia, Europe, Russia, are pretty well grounded technically. They've played some of the major works. So they've got the technical facility to adapt to some of the more, you know, technique phrases that require that technique to get around the keyboard. Certainly, listen to Oscar Peterson, Art Tatum, that's classical, you know, technique in it's best form. So a lot of these people are able to do that. I've found that one of the stopping points is if a student doesn't have that facility to be able to, you know, move over the keyboard with agility. However, you can't say that technique makes the music, no. There are some people that don't have a great deal, but just great, fertile imaginations that they're able to play, you know, economizing on the number of notes that don't require a lot of technique and still come up with some beautiful music you know on the keyboard. But, by and large the students from Asia, from Europe, seem to have, you know a very well grounded in technical terms you know for keyboard.

FB: Are they looking for something different than they were in the 60's, 70's nowadays? When they're coming, coming to the school or coming to you...

RS: With respect to the, what they want to learn?

FB: Yeah.

RS: I think Berklee has such a tremendous menu of electives that it leaves the door open for just about any student to choose what they feel would be a tailor- made program for their aspirations for what they want to do. You've got so many, so many elective courses that they can choose from, it kind of makes it easy for them to find a niche, you know and find where they want to go with this. I think all of which do have pre-requisites, you know all of the course material depending upon what they choose, would have pre-requisites. So they're able to kind of shape their own curriculum you know, taken from, choosing from the menu that's out there. I'm not sure I got to the heart of your question.

FB: I'm just, well I'm just wondering if you, have you had to adapt your, your program or your...

RS: Requirements?

FB: Yeah, requirements over the years to accommodate new trends or you know, a different, a different stance from the students who are coming in?

RS: Yeah, well there are certain minimum requirements for every piano student depending upon their, the choice of program. Those that choose professional music only need six semesters of piano and the requirements that go with it. Performance people need eight semesters with three juries and a final concert, recital. All other programs, music business, synthesis, jazz composition, all those things require only four semesters of piano and the requirements that go with that. Now the minimum requirements are straight across the board to begin with, with everybody. Then they do increase in levels of difficulty depending upon which area you've chosen. So the minimum requirements are pretty much in place including scaled, arpeggios and all the rudimentary stuff. However, then it boils down to the individual. I have to evaluate what, what I think this person wants, you know. Not deemphasizing the basic requirements, but moving on from there. Say okay, you'll, here's something in this style. Oh, it sounds like McCoy Tyner, it sounds like Keith Jarrett. Okay, this is where you might do it. You know, some of the technical things, I've been able to break it down and teach it that way. Someone is more concerned with more conservative styles. So you really have to evaluate and deliver above and beyond the minimum requirements depending upon the individual.

FB: Is the interpretation and, of the, say the great American Songbook still a foundation in terms of your core curriculum or the things that you're working from?

RS: Absolutely, another good question. I work from that, from the standard tunes. And what's given by the composer is the harmony and then pulling it apart, applying all of those, all those techniques found in the requirements with the, not reharmonizations, but adjunt harmonizations. The way they might use passing chords and all the other things to enhance what the composer has there and help those, their vocabulary become condusive to their own style. So we do work from that Great American Songbook you know.

FB: Do you work with singers as well as pianists?

RS: Some come in that are interested in that, so I do. I wrote a bunch of arrangements for a singer with two horns and rhythm. And I tried to, it's more coaching and organizing their arrangements and deductions and key changes and in some instances, they might have the you know, the rare privilege of hearing me sing a phrase. You know, and say, ‘well, try it this way,’ and so forth. And, yes I do, I work with some people for vocalise. Not any technical breathing techniques or anything.

FB: Do you find kids coming in who like certain songs but may have no inkling of the verse?

RS: Yeah, put me in that category. I have an inkling, but for some reason you know, if you're not a singer, you don't go after the verses. If you're just an instrumentalist, which I think is a mistake because often times the versus are lovely and people want to hear them and it's happened to me on many occasions. I was working with someone, “Do you know the verse for Tea for Two?” Well, I had a vague impression of it and I said, I couldn't say ‘yes’ because I would have committed myself to a big folly, you know. They don't, and should. I'm glad you brought that up because that's going to be a part of teaching, learn the verses, you know, and the lyrics.

FB: I always got a kick out of Dexter Gordon, not just holding up his horn when he finished a solo, but also reciting the lyrics in that beautiful, rich baritone of his before he would play it.

RS: Oh, sure.

FB: Particularly ballads.

RS: He could fill Symphony Hall without mics. I mean he was, not only his voice but the sound of his horn. I worked with him and it was astounding to hear that much power come out of the horn. But you addressed something very important and that is, if time allowed, why students wouldn't learn the lyrics and verses to the tunes, even if they're going to approach them instrumentally? You know, but be able to relate the lyric to the melody. But we know what's happened to lyrics over the years.

FB: Yes, a lot of things have been dumbed down. And that brings us to another, another point. You know, students coming to Berklee for ‘the quick fix’ or -- as you so amusingly referred to it while we were having coffee -- as, looking at Berklee as sort of ‘star annex’.

RS: Well, in it's own right, it's a wonderful thing because it certainly gives some leverage to a person. Saying boy, look at how many people came out of Berklee that have done very well. Why could that not be me? You know, so the intermingling, the bonding, the connecting, many students come to connect and they do very well. And they develop life long relationships with each other and not only musically but in business as well.

FB: Yep, networking, bigtime.

RS: Absolutely. And I see it everyday and I think it's a wonderful thing because we didn't have that opportunity so much as people have it today simply because of the media and the tangible media exposure that people can gain from television and video and so forth and so on. But I think for that reason it's a good drawing card you know, for people to say oh, if I go to Berklee, I'll meet so many different people and look who did go there and look who did succeed.

FB: And like Keith Jarrett, maybe a couple of semesters is going to be enough to fine-tune them, and oil their joints a bit, and give them a send-off.

RS: That's true. I think that's something that's being looked at you know. The amount of time people spend at the college as opposed to just coming in for a short period and the moving on.

FB: Well I mean administration may look at the difference between a diploma and a degree, but I'm sure a lot of these kids just don't think that way.

RS: No. I think they come to a point where they assess their formal education, what they're getting and what their basic talent is telling them. What can I do that's comparable to what I hear with groups and people performing, now young people? And could I meet that mark without what's happening academically? So I think that's constantly swirling around in their thinking, you know.

FB: Well yeah, it's, I mean there's this constant measuring yourself against your peers here and some kids who were big fish in small ponds out in podunk Kansas. They show up here and they go “wow! There's 55 guitarists who can play licks better than I do.” And that's, it can be a comeuppance that they have to internalize and deal with. It may steer them from performance to music therapy or education or sales, or whatever.

RS: And that's another good thing about the menu and the curriculum. You can drift from one major to another. Not without prerequisites, as I said, it's not all too easy, but they can do that if... Because there's a lot of mind changing going on. Where am I going, do I really want to be a jazz comp major, or do I want to go into music therapy? So that's a pretty interesting network of availability.

FB: What are some of the biggest changes you've seen over here? Being a career teacher in Berklee... for better or for worse. I mean things that have had a good or a negative impact on...

RS: I think the vision that we spoke about with Larry Berk, Lee Berk's dad, still maintains itself. The vision of allowing people to stay up with the ‘now music’. We have to be aware of what is coming from young people and the music of today. They actually develop it, you know. So if we find that young people are engaging in just things in a very natural way, we have to address that and prepare courses that would be available for young people. And, so this is what Larry Berk said many years ago. What's going on out there? Keep up with the times because if we, if we just maintain strict counterpoint and things in the standard way -- which is fine, that's conservatory, I guess -- we will be leaving out many young potentials because we're not adjusting what they're bringing to us and what they want to see as a way of playing or writing or stylistically different. So we have to be very aware of what goes on in the street and organize it enough academically so that we can present it. That's what they want, keep the menu open.

FB: Who were some of the, your proteges would you say in terms of students who've, who've shown the best artistic development you know over the years, or people that your proud to have had in the classroom.

RS: Well, when I first started teaching, they, meaning the school, teaching arranging, you know, those same techniques we had to learn when we first came into the school writing for saxes and brasses and so forth. And boy that was an experience. Who were the people that I had in that first class? Jake Hanna, Jimmy Mosher, Gene Cherico, famed bassist with Frank Sinatra for many years. And that was a real shock to look out and see these people sitting there, you know. Wondering what I was going to say to them and teach. And it was funny because Jake Hanna was with the Tonight Show for many years, drummer, and is still now very active on the West Coast, but he was at Berklee at the time. I think it was the Schillinger House then. And he was a great fan of W.C. Fields and he used to mimic him you know, very well, as a matter of fact.

FB: “My little chickadee…”

RS: “Played a town so small last week, I plugged in the electric razor and the trolley car slowed down.” Anyway, Jake loved it. And here we are in this class and there was some terminology, musical terminology that people had to know, I guess they had to know it. And one of the definitions was a G6/4, which meant a group of three chords, the one in the middle having the 5th in the bass. It's a standard progression you know that you play on the piano, but as part of this arranging course, I thought they should know that. And of course, W.C. Fields was a great drinker and Jake Hanna could mimic him to the letter. I said alright, Jake, what's the definition of a G6/4, as we said it was a group of three chords and one in the middle having the 5th in the bass, and he said, “Ah yes, G6/4…” Here he's standing up in front of the whole class, kind of guffawing as we go along. “It's a group of three men walking down the street, the one in the middle having a 5th in his back pocket.” So I mean it was, that was my introduction to teaching, arranging with all these people.
And Gene Cherico was professionally active right away you know. And I'd say, “Gene, you've got to make class, you've got to show up.” He said, “Oh, I do, I get there, it's a little bit late, I don't want to interrupt so I listen at the door.” So I said, “Okay Jake, Gene, that's funny.” So you know, there are a lot of people there, I wouldn't call them proteges, but there are a lot of people that did go on to do so well. Gene ended up with Sinatra, Vic Vantacorse said I just want to learn to sight-read and that's what we did; he went on to become Barry Manilow's director. Jake Hanna went on to the Tonight Show, I could go on and on with people that, you know, that I had in class and privately. So I guess you'd call them proteges. They were determined to do well to begin with.

FB: A couple I noticed recently were Makoto Takanaka [and] Christian Jacob who's out in the road with Tierney Sutton.

RS: Oh yeah, Chris is a great piano player. I think he went with Maynard [Ferguson]'s band.

FB: That's right.

RS: Maybe even married his daughter.

FB: He married his daughter.

RS: But he's a great piano player. I've heard some of his recent things, kind of lost track of him.

FB: Yeah he's got a new album out with some great standards on it by not Harold Arlen, I forget. One composer, Julie Stein.

RS: Oh yeah, I was able to hear him recently. Eric Jackson [WGBH-FM] does a great show, very eclectic in his choices.

FB: Eric's definitely got his finger on the pulse.

RS: A little something for everybody there and he was playing some of Chris Jacob's stuff and I said whoa, this is really good. Makoto Ozone.

FB: Ozone, too.

RS: He went on to do tremendous things. As I said before, these people came in with, in good standing right off the bat. Just needed the connecting, getting out there and becoming recognized. Yeah, Berklee's responsible for a lot of the, as being the springboard and giving the education to a lot of these people. Let's see, that covers the protege part of it.

FB: Do you want to talk about the contemporary scene? Evolution of the musical styles or good things that you're hearing in the classroom nowadays that you didn't hear 10 or 20 years, 10 or 15 years ago? Healthy trends in music shall we say.

RS: Yeah with the transitions to, to the more contemporary styles, McCoy Turner, Chic Corea, young students grew up with this and it comes fairly naturally for them to be able to emulate these new styles, very easily. And hopefully would be able to integrate some of the post-bebop styles as well, integrated lines that came from that period. And with that you've got a pretty good, well rounded style that meets contemporary criteria with some roots in it. I guess the more up do date stuff comes little easier than some of the older... Many of the students that come want to learn bebop, how to phrase the lines, taken from that period, which is a wonderful, classical way of playing over changes. Tommy Flanagan said he spent his career and his life learning to play that way. And it is a wonderful satisfying way to go through changes you know, using those lines. Sonny Stitt was great for that, and Bud Powell, of course. So a lot of the young people want to go back to find those roots, to enable it, integrate it into their, the more modern concepts, more original styles.

FB: Do some of the kids coming in say maybe from other cultures, have a hard time swinging?

RS: Well, even early on I remember a lot of evaluation of one's playing was based on did it lock in, did it swing, did it have a time feel that would generate enough so that people would respond to only that element. I mean of course you need the whole picture, beautiful lines and so forth. But without that, there tended to be a void and yes, I think that's one of the things that are probably the hardest to achieve for people. You have all the notes, all the phrases, but if the shapes aren't there and the feel of lock is not there, it leaves, it leaves a big void. And yes they do want it, but it's probably one that has to be felt and taught in such a way, with total immersion, just by demonstrating. And so I've found that that's one of the things that people want and need the most.

FB: Is this, is the, does it have anything to do with one's personal, national background? Do Asians have a harder time with it than they, say South Americans? Or is it...

RS: Am I going to stick my neck out on this? I'm thinking that there are certain cultures that tend to have a predisposition to responding to the molecular density of rhythm, more so than others.

FB: Could you amplify that?

RS: I could, I could. When you watch some of the wonderful salsa, Latin stuff, people as a group just fall into it and make motion and have such a sense of rhythmic response to what their surrounding is with the music. It's tremendous to watch. Whereas I think others not from that culture, I don't think a three piece suit with a bowtie stuck in the middle of that is going to find it easy to respond in a very natural sense. There, I stuck my neck out!

FB: Okay, that was diplomatic.

RS: So yeah, there is. I mean there is a definite distinction between cultures. As far as Asian, having not having that as an intrinsic part of the culture, probably find it more, little bit difficult to, to bring about in their own playing. Not all: Toshiko [Akiyoshi] had a pretty good time feel.

FB: Absolutely.

RS: She listened to Bud Powell so much and there are many others. Choko Onishi, many people that are... So it's very hard to pinpoint.

FB: I heard her here last year on stage at the Performance Center, she hasn't lost it at 75.

RS: That's right. So it's, that distinction is very hard to make. But as large groups of people are concerned, I think there's a definite, their predisposition to response to the molecular density of the rhythm.

FB: I think that we also have to take into account, cutting a little slack for the geniuses. When somebody comes in who is really strong in a certain area, if they tend to be a little bit remiss in certain niceties... One of the brighter students I think who has come through in the last year or two is this Nial Djuliarso who is consistently late for my class, consistently. It was a nine o'clocker, tough on them. He wasn't listening at the door: he was late! But you know, the kid's charming, he's talented, so you tend to, I mean, do you find a tendency to sort of let things slide a little bit or just appreciate them on their own level?

RS: Did, would you pass someone like that?

FB: I did.

RS: Just based on their own recognisance, would you?

FB: I cut him certain kinds of slack. I let him make up stuff that I didn't, that I wouldn't have extended to others.

RS: Fair enough.

FB: Because I knew he was involved with his recitals and out performing.

RS: Well, he was fortunate to have you as an instructor, able to realize that it's not so cut and dry to the point. Being in a creative situation that you can't recognize that this is not willful malficent, maleficence on his part. Sure, he was fortunate to have you as one that could visualize the fact that he's busy playing and so forth and could, and also he was fortunate to have the fact that you would cut the slack and let him make a showing a little later on.

FB: Have you been able to do that?

RS: Yeah, I do it with proficiency exams.

FB: I see.

RS: Because technically what happens is the minimum requirements are in place and at the end of the semester people have to do a jury or proficiency examination. And if they, they should have a really good reason for not making the exam. However, if it, if they're borderline cases and you recognize it, they could, we try not to encourage it, but with me I try to say, “You know look, the ball's in your court. If you take an incomplete and you don't have a real super reason, but I'll recognize what you have done here as being good faith. Let's do that, but you have to make that up in the following semester early on and if you don't, it turns into an F. I can't do anything about it. So it's up to you to take, approach this in an adult way and do it.”

FB: They appreciate the second chance, but they don't always act on it.

RS: Right. So, and then if there's a really good reason, they can make an appeal to the chairman and try to take the exam over again. So it's individual, completely individual. We do try to give them the benefit of the doubt because otherwise if they were to mess, mess up on that, they would have to take the whole course over again in order to graduate. That could reflect into thousands of dollars you know.

FB: Indeed.

RS: How strict do we want to be with certain people?

FB: So in summation, what would you say, I don't know, could you take a long view at Berkee's contribution to the musical well being of this country or popular music or can you put it in perspective vis-a-vis some of the other major schools?

RS: Sure, the school in it's ability to formalize all styles from early jazz on every instrument through, all through the ages and the history of it and the transformations of it and having formalized it to the degree that it could be presented to students at every level, from every culture and use the information in order to enhance their own visions of what they want to do in the music world. They were not just left out there to pick things up off the street you know. The school has formalized the information and presents it in a very real way, you know in a very active way through performances, through the academic part of it. So I think yeah, to answer the question, the school has internationally endowed people with the education and the ability to consummate their aspirations so to speak. Because they were able to formulate, Larry Berk would say, “Oh, you have an idea about a course? Have it on my desk in the morning. You want a repertory class? Have it outlined for me the next…” So we had to do that, you know. And that's been the way it's gone ever since.

FB: What's been your own personal philosophy as a pianist and teacher, a professional who's been out playing? I mean just how do you, what's your, you know your long look at life in terms of playing and teaching?

RS: Well, you still want to try to promote the availability of your own exposure you know and keep on doing your CD's which we've just released a couple. We being myself and associates. And striving to keep up with the stimulation, stimuli that's going on which you kind of feed off with the young students you come in contact with every day and realising that, how could this be helpful for my, my style and my improvement? So it's a constant challenge of being creative. You know, so if you let it stop, somehow lapse into obscurity, you don't want that to happen. So you try to do as much playing as possible, stay with that. Recording and learning from the people that you're dealing with every day, you know.

FB: Art Blakey said, “If you're not moving ahead, you fall behind.”

RS: There's no standing still.

FB: Ray, thank you.

RS: Fred, always a pleasure.

FB: It's been a pleasure. Sorry we couldn't get through your picture books. That's another, another whole can of worms.

RS: Because I wanted to... I've got some great pictures of, if I may say so, your wedding in [Perugia] Italy.

FB: Oh my heavens, only in jazz...

RS: You were gracious enough to invite us, too. And let's see, Cheryl Weiner says to say hello.

FB: Cheryl Weiner, bless me soul, yes.

RS: She called me from New York and said be sure, I told her that we were going to be having this meeting, she said say hello to Fred for me.

FB: Boy, I've been out of touch with her.

RS: Yeah, she's in New York doing okay.

FB: Good.

RS: And we, that was a great time. It was in the City Hall there I think you had the ceremony.

FB: That's right.

RS: Beautiful place there.

FB: Medieval building with high, high ceilings and pigeons flying around.

RS: Yeah, it was great.

FB: [UmbriaJazz Founder] Carlo Pagnotta was there.

RS: Carlo...

FB: And the, all his staff. I mean people like Ian Adams who was married to Claudia.

RS: That's right.

FB: And I went, they got married two weeks after we did. I went to their wedding.

RS: Yeah, that was great. I'm looking forward to getting back there at some point you know, on a personal level.

FB: Umbria, it's an epitome of culture, in worldly delights, and fine music.

RS: Absolutely. Maybe next year. Fred, thank you so much for the opportunity to share this stuff with you.

FB: Thank you Ray, it's a pleasure.

RS: Okay.